kikimay: (Dubious Buffybot)
[personal profile] kikimay

What the hell did I just read??


And there are other posts about the general confusion on Italians and Italy. These are the actual highlights of the "Italian Discourse" on Tumblr:

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST (The "Terroni" comment though. HAHAHAHA)

Guys, for the love of everything that it's sacred. If you've never been in Italy, if you have never studied Italian history and you don't know what you're talking about, just kindly SHUT THE FUCK UP.

This is just spreading misinformation and confusion on a social platform.

Also, as a general advise, try to learn History from book research and try to ALWAYS search for the sources and their historical validation. Otherwise it will make you even more confused.

Anyway, as you know, your girl here is Sicilian. Born and raised. (And actually living in the island) According to this line of thinking I shouldn't be the way I am which is very, very pale.

Hint: Normans conquered Sicily too.

Date: 2017-06-20 05:31 pm (UTC)
torino10154: Cropped Hufflepuff crest (Voyeur)
From: [personal profile] torino10154

My husband has a cousin who is married to a Sicilian. Dark hair and skin with green eyes. His brother is similar colored but with brown eyes and their sister is fair with blond hair and blue eyes. My husband's family are from Puglia and they've got red heads with blue eyes as well as the darker complected ones that look more like what people think Italians should look like. TBH my husband's natural skin color is probably lighter than mine and I'm Norwegian/German/Scottish mix. He just tans better. :P

That said, when he did National Geographic's original Genographic project DNA test, the people Italians like himself are most closely related to are basically everyone around the Mediterranean. Spaniards, Greeks, North Africans, Palestinians and Jews.

Makes me think of the Lucio Dalla song, "Siciliano."

sono siciliano... nord-africano... un po norvegese... ma comunque siciliano

Date: 2017-06-20 06:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

I've come to believe that tumblr and /pol/ are actually the same people.

Date: 2017-06-20 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

The alt.right beehive of the internet that uses absolutist generalizations for sexuality, race, nationality and religion. They've been doing the whole "Italians aren't white" thing for years.

The two sites should be the antithesis of the other, yet they behave in the exact same ways. The only thing that changes is who the bad guys are.

Date: 2017-06-20 11:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Did you know that a person can be Caucasian but not be white? True facts, the US Supreme Court said so.

Date: 2017-06-20 11:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

Your convo with Gillo below sums it up. The "logic"--term used loosely--changes for whatever point they're trying to make.

Date: 2017-06-20 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
L'ignoranza degli americani è abissale... e questa cosa degli italiani che sarebbero di colore mi fa sempre incazzare come una belva. Ma tanto anche se spieghi le cose a uno, ne saltano fuori altri 20. Non è colpa loro se tutto quello che sanno dell'Italia lo hanno visto nello stereotipato cinema americano.

Se mettessero piede in Italia vedrebbero quanto varie sono le carnagioni e i fenotipi... qui da noi in Veneto 2/3 dei bambini sono biondi, e metà della popolazione ha occhi chiari.

Come dici tu, è la misinformazione il problema.

Date: 2017-06-20 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Sì, ma anche loro sono uno stato etnicamente eterogeneo e complesso, il cosiddetto "melting pot", quindi dovrebbero essere in grado di guardare oltre al dualismo bianco/nero e cogliere le sfumature in mezzo. Invece non sono in grado.

Cmq nel caso in questione non aiuta il fatto che tutti gli italiani che sono emigrati negli Usa sembrano essere tipicamente "meridionali" (pelle scura, occhi e capelli scuri), nonostante gli individui con queste caratteristiche qui in Italia siano solo una delle tante tipologie...ciò non aiuta lo stereotipo, perpetuato dai film con gli italiani mafiosi o le varie Sofie Loren starnazzanti.

E' una cazzata alla fine, chissenefrega se gli americani pensano che non siamo bianchi... ma mi fa incazzare! Hahahah

Date: 2017-06-20 09:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
<Non sempre gli italiani emigranti erano meridionali

Ovviamente no, ma in generale, i migranti del sud Italia sono andati negli Usa/Canada, mentre i migranti del nord sono emigrati in Sud America.

e comunque, come dicevo, anche tra i meridionali ci sono quelli con gli occhi azzurri o i capelli rossi, credimi.

Ah, assolutamente, lo so!! Solo che l'emigrato italiano tipico negli Usa evidentemente tende ad essere molto "olivastro" (a dire il vero, non credo mi sia mai capitato di vedere italo-americani con capelli e occhi chiari nei film/telefilm/reality shows americani), altrimenti non sarebbe nato lo stereotipo che tutti gli italiani sono così, mentre siamo in realtà un popolo variegato.

Inoltre, noto che a fare questi sorta di "call out posts" sono spessissimo giovanissimi che, onestamente, ancora devono imparare tante cose.

Su tumblr sicuramente, però ho visto "Italians are people of color/black/not white" anche in molti altri posti (forums, blogs), quindi non sono solo i giovani ...

Date: 2017-06-20 09:55 pm (UTC)
gillo: (Crazy!Spike)
From: [personal profile] gillo
Good grief, some people are morons. Italians are any colour they damned well happen to be. Which covers a pretty wide range, considering even just the three thousand years or so of recorded history, let alone the rest.

And, yes, Norman Sicily was a thing. And Normans were three or four generations at most from being Vikings. Europe has been a melting pot forever. Literally. Since Neanderthals intermixed with Cro Magnons.

Date: 2017-06-20 10:55 pm (UTC)
gillo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gillo
You get the same thing here. 'Pure English'? Don't make me laugh.

I think some of it is the US obsession with dividing people into separate races. And the need some subgroups have to claim that they are 'disadvantaged' just like people of colour. So if you claim Italians are non-white you could get some of the perceived concessions made to racial minorities. And others who want to represent Italian-Americans as inferior, because not WASPs.

It's all deeply stupid. The further south you go in Europe the more darker-toned skins you are likely to see because, guess what? It's hotter and sunnier there and melanin develops to help deal with it. But if you don't carry the genes for that, no amount of sun will brown you. You just have to stay in the shade. Historically pale skin and hair were much prized, so that would have a minor evolutionary effect too.

Who cares, anyway. I've seen plenty of Chinese-Italians (Prato has a lot I seem to remember) and Indian-Italians. If you live in Italy, speak Italian and are an Italian citizen, you're Italian, whatever the tone of your skin, hair or eyes. (Mi é piacuta molto leggere la tua conversazione italiano.)

Date: 2017-06-20 11:33 pm (UTC)
gillo: (Crazy!Spike)
From: [personal profile] gillo
Si, lo studio da cinque anni. Mi piace molto parlare italiano, ma non scritto bene.

I have dark(ish) skin - probably my Welsh heritage - and tan very easily. My hair is now mostly white, but was dark and I have brown eyes. One of my daughters has brown hair and green eyes and has to avoid the sun or she burns. The other is blonde with blue eyes but rarely burns in the sun. Anyone with European ancestry is going to be a complete mixture of types. Including those ridiculous white supremacists.

No, I haven't followed Italian politics, because our own politics has been such a total fuckup over the last year. It sounds like a good opportunity to behave in a sane, rational and compassionate manner was thrown away. We know too much about that here too. :-(

Date: 2017-06-21 12:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Are you tell me that all Italian people don't look the same?

My fantasies of your country are shattered.

I mean I think most of the people I saw the one time I was there looked white, but I was mostly hanging out in the touristy part of Venice so I'm sure they were all from out of country.

(What's Terroni?)

Date: 2017-06-21 12:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I promise I was joking when I said I believed Italians all look the same. I mean even countries that are really stereotyped as being monoracial, like Scandinavian countries, aren't monoracial...someone on my LJ feed was recently posting about a movie that focused on the Sami people (a racial minority in Scandinavia). Hell, my cousin's mother is Swedish, as is my cousin and her other children, and she was adopted from Korea as a baby (at that time, her adoption had to be signed off by the king of Sweden). So my born-in-Sweden cousin has a white American dad and a Korean-Swedish mom.

Umberto Bossi, the founder of the party, did a whole career screaming at us.

Wow, when was this? Was there an actual volcano eruption or were they just hoping for one?

Date: 2017-06-21 06:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Sarcasm is hard to read on the internet, and I am told that I my sarcasm is sometimes hard to read even in person.

And actually, while I didn't speak to many people in Venice (what? I'm anti-social), I did talk to worked for the hotel I stayed at and drove me to or from there, and he was definitely Venetian. I remember when I said I was going to Athens he told me that he had been there, that a lot of Venetians go to Athens as their first trip as an adult. He was actually about the only person I really spoke to in Italy. But I wasn't there very long.

It's amazing how much political hatred some people have. You'd think after all this time people would have figured out scapegoating and dehumanizing some group-or-other isn't going to solve their problems, but apparently not. At least our president hasn't threatened anyone with volcanoes yet, although I'm sure that will happen as soon as Hawaii pisses him off.

Date: 2017-06-21 12:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

It's been my belief that it's one of those perspective insults. In American racist terms, it's like calling someone a person with very mixed racial heritage. "Impure" or a "mudblood". Terra=Brown.

Date: 2017-06-21 01:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

Stupidity is one of their distinctive traits, yeah. :P Here they've even taken to calling people with brown eyes as impure or lesser. It's really just about elevating themselves by whatever means they can think up. It doesn't necessarily have to make sense.

What's bizarre is that here in America people have bought into it at both ends. One side says they're lesser while the other says: See? We're disadvantaged!



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